Miata Mailing List: September 1998, Message #129

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In a message dated 98-09-01 23:54:49 EDT, LeanAngle1 writes:

<< 
 << But, if 1/4" is the best fit witnessed, how will the roll bar (or
  car chassis) take to snugging down 1/2" of mis-fit.  3/4"?  1"?  Do I 
  really want this rigid triangulated structure bolted to my cars 
  chassis, with the bar being in tension/compression/flexure?  What 
  will that do to my car over time?  Is the bar bending, or the car?  
  Hmmm... bowing a panel in the middle (the mounting area in the car) 
  or lengthening/compressing a steel tube length-wise....  
   >>
 
 * Will,
 
 The 1/4 inch difference is no big deal. This is on the flange that supports
the upright for the main hoop. It really poses no problem and straightens out
flush with the seat belt deck after tightening to the backing plates.
 
 FWIW, there is a big stigma on how difficult it is to install a Hard Dog (or
any other roll bar). My feelings are this:
 
 1.> You have to be totally honest with yourself in terms of your mechanical
and analytical abilities. If changing your own oil & filter, installing sway
bars, changing springs/shocks, replacing brake pads or general easy
maintanence things are difficult for you or overtly challenging to you, then
forget about doing a quick install of a roll bar. Generally speaking, you
don't have to be a mechanical engineer to figure it out. It's really very
straight forward.
 
 2.> The instructions that come with the bar are totally crap. If you have an
analytical mind, you can just look at the bar and then figure out how it's
supposed to fit in the confines of the Miata. 
 
 3.> If you're afraid of "cutting" into your Miata...then also forget about
it. It doesn't take much to make the necessary clearences for a Hard Dog Hard
Core Roll Bar. The approximate cutting dimensions are two strip one on each
extreme end of the package tray...for the Hard Core Bar it's about 3" x
4.5"..for a Hard Dog Sport Roll Bar these cuts are slightly longer...3" x
6"..that's it. they can be cut with a ceramic bladed circular saw and tin
snips...takes about 5 minutes to do.
 
 4.> If minor irregularities and imperfections in dimensions and tolerences of
the bar will stop you from installing it....Don't start in the first place. I
do not know how the HD is welded at the factory (presumably on a jig), but
there are differences in tolerences on each bar and each Miata I've ever
installed one on. The range I've seen is from 1/2" to 1/4" in fitment
differences. This shouldn't stop you if you can just look at it and figure out
how to deal with the imperfections. On one bar I installed, everything lined
up perfectly except the rear main spars would not fit flush to the rear frame
deck. they were about 1/2" above the deck. I loosened the seat belt tower main
hoop bolts so that the bar would have room to flex a little, then put a 4"
long carriage bolt through each (one on each spar) spar mounting holes. I
tightened the carriage bolts and then the flange fit flush to the deck.
Drilled the rest of the holes, installed the bolts and nut fasteners, tightend
up all the fastening points...voila..done..This is an example of some of the
situations that you need to be able to work with, and around in some cases.
 
 5.> Before attenpting a roll bar install, you should take inventory of your
tools. Nothing makes it more easier to install or more difficult to install if
you do not have the right tools. For an example, just having the proper carpet
button removale tool saves you 15 minutes. Having a wide selection of cutting
devices at your disposal helps too. Drills ratchets in both 3/8" and 1/2"
drive (plus all sockets etc.). Jack stands and proper floor jack, shop vacuum
and a large work area help too.
 
 6.> If you have FEAR...of breaking something, or doing it wrong...forget
about it...pay someone to do it...It will save you a lot of mental grief. In
actuality, there isn't anything you could do..that couldn't be fixed...even if
you cut the wrong size slots for the bar supports.
 
 7.> If you like a challenge...and are fairly sure of your mechanical
abilities...and want to really bond with your Miata...I say go for it.Nothing
like bleeding a little on your Miata for a blood bond..LOL..!!!!
 
 I too was very concerned over the difficulty of installing a roll bar before
I originally did mine. The rampid "fear" that people on the list posted nearly
caused me to spend unecessary M$U's to have someone do it for me. I heard
countless stories of the install taking as long as a week!!!!
Unbelievable....Talk to the right people about how to install the bar. I spoke
with Bill Cardell (and IMHO..he is the right person to talk to)...he assured
me it can be done in a matter of 2 to 3 hours..He was absolutely
right!!!!...I'm glad I did it..and personally decided it really is a no
brainer affair if you take a few proper steps...biggest thing is TOOLS.....a
man can never have enough tools right...!!!!...LOL..!!!
 
 Sorry for the rambling.....just a few of my limited thoughts..Hope it helps a
little..
 
 FWIW,
 
 Aaron
 aaron@miata.net >>


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From: LeanAngle1@aol.com
Return-path: <LeanAngle1@aol.com>
To: wbrown@miata.net
Subject: Re: Hard Dog's Night (Long)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 23:54:49 EDT
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In a message dated 98-09-01 22:29:04 EDT, you write:

<< But, if 1/4" is the best fit witnessed, how will the roll bar (or
 car chassis) take to snugging down 1/2" of mis-fit.  3/4"?  1"?  Do I 
 really want this rigid triangulated structure bolted to my cars 
 chassis, with the bar being in tension/compression/flexure?  What 
 will that do to my car over time?  Is the bar bending, or the car?  
 Hmmm... bowing a panel in the middle (the mounting area in the car) 
 or lengthening/compressing a steel tube length-wise....  
  >>

* Will,

The 1/4 inch difference is no big deal. This is on the flange that supports
the upright for the main hoop. It really poses no problem and straightens out
flush with the seat belt deck after tightening to the backing plates.

FWIW, there is a big stigma on how difficult it is to install a Hard Dog (or
any other roll bar). My feelings are this:

1.> You have to be totally honest with yourself in terms of your mechanical
and analytical abilities. If changing your own oil & filter, installing sway
bars, changing springs/shocks, replacing brake pads or general easy
maintanence things are difficult for you or overtly challenging to you, then
forget about doing a quick install of a roll bar. Generally speaking, you
don't have to be a mechanical engineer to figure it out. It's really very
straight forward.

2.> The instructions that come with the bar are totally crap. If you have an
analytical mind, you can just look at the bar and then figure out how it's
supposed to fit in the confines of the Miata. 

3.> If you're afraid of "cutting" into your Miata...then also forget about it.
It doesn't take much to make the necessary clearences for a Hard Dog Hard Core
Roll Bar. The approximate cutting dimensions are two strip one on each extreme
end of the package tray...for the Hard Core Bar it's about 3" x 4.5"..for a
Hard Dog Sport Roll Bar these cuts are slightly longer...3" x 6"..that's it.
they can be cut with a ceramic bladed circular saw and tin snips...takes about
5 minutes to do.

4.> If minor irregularities and imperfections in dimensions and tolerences of
the bar will stop you from installing it....Don't start in the first place. I
do not know how the HD is welded at the factory (presumably on a jig), but
there are differences in tolerences on each bar and each Miata I've ever
installed one on. The range I've seen is from 1/2" to 1/4" in fitment
differences. This shouldn't stop you if you can just look at it and figure out
how to deal with the imperfections. On one bar I installed, everything lined
up perfectly except the rear main spars would not fit flush to the rear frame
deck. they were about 1/2" above the deck. I loosened the seat belt tower main
hoop bolts so that the bar would have room to flex a little, then put a 4"
long carriage bolt through each (one on each spar) spar mounting holes. I
tightened the carriage bolts and then the flange fit flush to the deck.
Drilled the rest of the holes, installed the bolts and nut fasteners, tightend
up all the fastening points...voila..done..This is an example of some of the
situations that you need to be able to work with, and around in some cases.

5.> Before attenpting a roll bar install, you should take inventory of your
tools. Nothing makes it more easier to install or more difficult to install if
you do not have the right tools. For an example, just having the proper carpet
button removale tool saves you 15 minutes. Having a wide selection of cutting
devices at your disposal helps too. Drills ratchets in both 3/8" and 1/2"
drive (plus all sockets etc.). Jack stands and proper floor jack, shop vacuum
and a large work area help too.

6.> If you have FEAR...of breaking something, or doing it wrong...forget about
it...pay someone to do it...It will save you a lot of mental grief. In
actuality, there isn't anything you could do..that couldn't be fixed...even if
you cut the wrong size slots for the bar supports.

7.> If you like a challenge...and are fairly sure of your mechanical
abilities...and want to really bond with your Miata...I say go for it.Nothing
like bleeding a little on your Miata for a blood bond..LOL..!!!!

I too was very concerned over the difficulty of installing a roll bar before I
originally did mine. The rampid "fear" that people on the list posted nearly
caused me to spend unecessary M$U's to have someone do it for me. I heard
countless stories of the install taking as long as a week!!!!
Unbelievable....Talk to the right people about how to install the bar. I spoke
with Bill Cardell (and IMHO..he is the right person to talk to)...he assured
me it can be done in a matter of 2 to 3 hours..He was absolutely
right!!!!...I'm glad I did it..and personally decided it really is a no
brainer affair if you take a few proper steps...biggest thing is TOOLS.....a
man can never have enough tools right...!!!!...LOL..!!!

Sorry for the rambling.....just a few of my limited thoughts..Hope it helps a
little..

FWIW,

Aaron
aaron@miata.net

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